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While cleaning and sorting thru Dr. Otto H. Schmitt’s papers, I (TomYoung) found the following transcript in the spring of 2002 and scanned it into a Word document and edited the obvious typos. It is an interview of Viola Clair (maiden name of Schmitt then married a Young, and later married a Meier) Meier [VCM] by her brother Otto H Schmitt [OHS] and his wife Viola Elise (maiden name Muench) Schmitt [VES]. The actual tapes have not been found, yet, but are probably at the University of Minnesota Archives. The interview just seems to suddenly end, as if they forgot to put another tape in the recorder, or it just didn’t record or was lost or ??? Unfortunately, it seems to be missing the part of history that is still missing: The ancestors of Arthur Christian Young who was born in 18 and died in 1935. Someday, I hope to have this gap filled in…It would appear that VCM never got over the shock of her first husband’s death, unfortunately, by not talking about him much, his life is disappearing faster… Early Schmitt Family History Tape Transcription January 1, 1977 Saturday We are at Neosho Street and Viola is telling me all the facts of family history from the records so we want to have some of this recorded. We have first this record that Viola got from the St. Louis at the Public Library City directories/and it shows — - well here, you tell ‘em. VCM: In 1878 Francis Senniger was listed as a painter. In 1884 Francis
Senniger was listed as a paper hanger. In 1889, Francis Senniger was listed
as a paper hanger. In 1890, Francis Senniger was listed as a painter.
In 1892 and 1893, Francis Senniger was listed as paper hanger lining at
3551 DeCalb. In 1894, Francis Senniger was listed as a paper hanger living
at 3513 Nebraska. In 1896, Francis Senniger was listed as living at 3513
Nebraska and having the store at 2833 Cherokee. In 1901, Otto Schmitt
was listed as a baker living at 3513 Nebraska which was the same home
as his ~ in-laws, Francis and Mary Senniger and he was at that time married
to Clara Senniger. In 1902 Francis Senniger was listed as president of
Senniger and Schmitt Wall Paper and Painting Company. In 1902 Otto F.
Schmitt was listed as vice president of Senniger and
OHS: Now we go on to the second section here. Now we have expanded commentaries on the sheet that Viola sent me last year about the family register of the Schaler side. VCM: Grandma Schmitt had been a Schaler. Her father’s name was
Johannes Kasper Schaller who was born January 12, 1795 and he died October
10, 1865. OHS: Now the children are whose children? VCM: Well Grandma Schmitt’s brothers and. sisters, you want all these? OHS: Sure, VCM: Michael Godlipp, born Jan. 16, 1819 and died of a stroke at 68 years
of age. Margaret Schaller, who married a Junkunz, died of old age at 80.
Then there was Margareta Frederika Schaller who married a Ruhl. She was born March 16, 1835 and died at 58 years of age of asthma. The next one, who is our grandmother, was Anna Margareta Schaller, born August 14, 1040 and. was married July 29, 1863 by Pastor Gottlief Schaller in the Evangelical Lutheran Trinity Church to Pastor Franz Wilhelm Schmitt who was born October 19, 1835 and. he was the son of Franz Kasper Fidel. His mother was Elenora Wilhelmina, born Kurz. The children of Anna Margareta Schaller, who was our grandma who was married to Pastor Franz Wilhelm Schmitt, are Margareta Wilhelmina Ida, born August 13 1864, married to Louis Wagner. She was Edna Moeller’s mother. She died early when Edna was a very young child. The second one is Franz August Johannes, whom we called Uncle John. He was born December 17, 1865 and was married to Elizabeth Schoenhof. He was born in Frankenkirch, Illinois. He died at the age of 72, April 20, 1937. The next one is Anna Margareta Franciska, whom we called Tante Frances. The next one is Car Gottlieb Martin, whom we called Uncle Doc and his name was changed from Schmitt to Charles Smith because of the man who saw him through college and gave him the money to go to medical school. He was born Jan. 19, 1869 in West Seneca. He married Altha Backhaus. He died April 19, 19)46 at the age of 77 years. His children were Irene and Fern. Irene married Julian Smith and they had. two children, Carl George and. Cecilia.
The next child was Hermine Caroline Theodora Julie, whom we called Tante Julia, born February 22, 1871 at West Seneca, NY and she married Heinrich Wahlmann. She died in January of 1963. The next one was Augusta Louisa Bertha, whom we called Aunt Bertha, born June 16, 1873 in West Seneca, NY and she was married to Karl Hummelsheim. She died April 25, 1947 and was 74 years old. She had four children, Carl, Herbert who was killed in the war, Edwin (1902 - ), Clara, and Franz Johannes Otto, who is our father, born January 22, 1875 in West Seneca, NY. He married Clara Louise Elizabeth Senniger; Otto F. Schmitt died August 16, 1960 at the age of 84 and ½ years. [See Appendix A] The next one is Margaretha Mathilda Anna, whom we knew as Tante Anna, born Nov. 7, 1878 in St. Johannesburg or Martinsville, NY. She died July 18, 1957 at the age of 78 years. [See Appendix A] The youngest child of the marriage was Augusta Wilhelmina Marie Martha, whom we knew as Aunt Martha, born April 26, 1880 in St. Johannesburg, NY. She was married to Theophile Henkel, Aunt Martha died December 23, 1959 at the age of 79 years. OHS: We think we should do some of the Mom’s side of the family, things from what Viola remembers. VCM: Aunt Lizzie, Aunt Rikka, our Grandmother Senniger were sisters. Aunt Lizzie had been widowed and. lived in a home on Wyoming Street where she ran a boarding house. Francis Senniger boarded there and met our grandmother Mary Senniger who was about 16 years of age. They married her early in/life. They lived on Decalb Street, our grand mother and grandfather. OHS: Is this the one we know as President Street? Then VCM: Yes. Then, Grandpa Senniger bought the house at 3513 Nebraska Ave where they lived and after a while, around 1894, he went into business and had a wallpaper company on Cherokee Street.
OHS: While you are getting your breath, you mentioned three sisters. Now I did not have that clear. VCM: There were three sisters and one brother. Tante Lizzie, who was married three times. Her first married name was Fuchs. She had a number of children whom we call Taste Clara, George, Lillie (Preusser), and Kate (Krueger). Then there is Uncle George, who had five children, ho was an Erbe (sp?), there was a. Clarence and a Lucille and I don’t remember the rest of the names, he was divorced and married to Helen Erbe, whom we called Aunt Helen. Then there was Aunt Rikka Yohn - they had three children: Carrie and William and Anne (whom we call Anne Diedrich). Then we go to our Grandma Senniger. OHS: Now these were our mother’s aunts and uncles. VCM: They were Erbes. Going back to the history of Mary anti Francis Senniger, Francis Senniger bought this store, or rented it, around 1894 and our mother, Clara Senniger, worked at her father’s store before she went to high school, or rather during the time she went to high school. She went to Central High School, walking all the way up to Grand past Olive and graduated from high school in 1895, I have the ring to show it. She helped in the store until her marriage. During this time her father had started the idea of excursions and he took the train down to New Orleans, taking our mother with him, and. also I cannot now remember the other places where he took her. OHS: I remember hearing about Colorado, Pike’s Peak, and Niagara Falls, but there may be more. VCM: I don’t remember all the places. Then they bought this place on Nebraska Ave., 3513 Nebraska. Our parents, Otto Schmitt, Clara Senniger were married June 6, 1900, and live at 3513 upstairs. They were married. At the church, Our Redeemer Lutheran Church, on California and Juniata, and at the time of the streetcar strike, so they had - so my father gave them cabbages to hold for flowers for fun.
OHS: Explain about the church on Juniata as against Utah and. Oregon. VCM: Later on they needed more room, so they bought the land at Oregon and Utah. Now do you know how our parents met? OHS: Tell us. VCM: Our mother had gone to an Episcopalian Sunday School, therefore she knew of Sunday Schools. She spoke English. She was confirmed, however, at Holy Cross Lutheran Church which was a German-speaking church. However, Rev. Setse (?) Schmidt instructed our mother in English. At the confirmation class as they got together, she met our Aunt Anna who brought her to her home and our father, Otto Schmitt, met our mother and liked her from the start. At that time, after he met our mother who did not dance, our father gave up dancing and - well the result was that they were married in 1900. OHS: And where did he live then? VCM: He lived on California, the middle small house on the west side of the street between Wyoming and Juniata. It is a one story house. OHS: He lived there with his mother and Anna and Martha. And where was Frances at this time? VCM: She had her hat shop in Waterloo. OHS: She had this at that time? VCM: Well, she was older. In 1896 there was this cyclone coming through south Saint Louis which destroyed all the trees in Lafayette Park. As our father was coming home, there were all sorts of marbles and debris flying around. He brought some marble home from which later on he carved a hymnal out of this marble, a replica of his mother’s hymnal, which has been given to Frank. When our father came to his home, which was this one story home, the roof of the house was blown off. However, he opened the door to see how things were. I-us mother was preparing the meal. She said, ‘well, you have to have a meal’, so she had to cook whether there was a roof or not.
OHS: Can you fill in a little bit of this? We have this right at 1900 and Pop living on California Ave with his mother and Aunt Anna, Aunt Frances having already established her hat business, probably. Can you fill in any of the business from Red Bud on where I know Pop lived as a child? VCM: When Our Redeemer Church was on Juniata and California, Taste Anna and our mother were teaching Sunday School, which was a new idea to the Lutheran Church and Theophil Henkel was a teacher and Aunt Martha met Uncle Theo around this time and he was the first teacher at the new building on Utah Street, the small -- we call it a hall today. That was the first church on the Utah side. Then in 1900 Mom and Pop were married and lived upstairs at 2813 Nebraska. Our father had to decide, should he become a baker Or should he go into the wallpaper business with his father—in—law? With my mother considering it with my father, they determined that he would go in with the father—in—law and work with him Side 2!!! VCM: Our parents’ wedding was a very elaborate affair. Our mother had a very expensive gown. Her bridesmaids were Tante Martha and Aunt Anna. They had the wedding reception in the garden the empty lot which really belonged to the property of 3513 Nebraska Ave. The garden was lighted with Japanese lanterns. There was singing from the balcony of 3513 Nebraska Ave. and this was a very elaborate affair because our grandfather had only one daughter whom ho loved dearly and. gave all his affection and saw to it that she had whatever he could provide for her. In 1902 I was born, Viola, Oct. 15, 1902, in the front room upstairs of 3813 Nebraska. As my father said, that was the first time he saw that dark haired girl, baby girl. By this time our grandfather had died, Grandpa Senniger had died. He died before I was born, leaving my father to run the store. On November 23, 1903, my brother Francis Otto Schmitt was born. Six weeks after Frank’s birth, my mother had typhoid fever and our father worked very hard to save her, packing her with ice. She lost all her hair at that time. It came in curly. Now the lady next door, Mrs. Miller, took care of the baby, Francis, and they gave him goat’s milk, which nourished him well enough. In…
OHS: He was born on Nebraska, then? VCM: On Nebraska, 3513A Nebraska. Then in 1904 our father, Otto F. Schmitt, decided he needed a larger house for the store and the home, therefore he used the sale of the 3513 Nebraska property to buy the property at 3257-59 California. It was always registered in the name of Mary Senniger. This continued to be called Senniger-Schmitt until much later. Mary Senniger was a heavy woman, about five feet tall, 300 pounds; therefore we had a large bath tub. She had the back room on 3259A California. Now they always considered our mother a lucky accident because of our grandmother’s condition: She had her periods only twice a year. OHS: There were two places on Cherokee Street and you say that 3259 was established in 1904, and the business was already going in 1894. VCM: Between 1894 and 1904 it was located in two locations on Cherokee Street, one next door to the ---- what we used to call Starke’s Market on Oregon and. Cherokee and the other one about two doors east of Nebraska. VCM: Grandma Senniger lived with us until I was almost five years old., which would have been 1907. At that time Lillie still lived with us. After Grandma Senniger died, Lillie discontinued living with us and. Grandma Schmitt and. Tante Anna came to live with us. She lived with us until January of 1920. Grandma Schmitt had a stroke around. May of 1919. I graduated from high school in June of 1919. I was given a trip to Buffalo, New York, for a graduation present, but because Grandma had a stroke, I could not go because I had to take care of her as much as I could. At this time I was sleeping on a cot in the front room by the mantle piece and I would take care of her if she would get up during the night. She did not like it if I had to call my father, but she was taller than I and I could not lift her if she fell. Therefore I had to call my father at times. OHS: As I recall, she spoke good English but preferred to speak German. VCM: She only spoke German to me; I answered her in English. OHS: That’s what I mean. I knew this and this was part of my basis of not knowing that she spoke German, because all grown ups were crazy —— Grandmas spoke one peculiar way, Papas spoke another peculiar way, Mammas spoke another way, sisters spoke another way -- and so I didn’t know that this was German and so I would answer her in Grandma talk, which might have been English and/or German, and never realized that it was a foreign language. This is an interesting topic that you bring up because I recalled my grandmother very well, numerous episodes, but I remember that when she died, I was still sleeping in a baby bed in my parents’ bedroom by the bathroom in 3259, because that was where I was told about her having died that night. It would be very interesting to trace where people lived, where they slept in this house, this big house.
VCM: Now I think one thing that has been omitted has been the fact that around April of 1913 we acquired a number of goats. In April of 1913, April 6th of 1913, the door to the back room was closed and we were huddled into the middle room, Grandma’s room, and. the discussion went on there with Tante Anna and my father about what the name of the new baby should be. The baby had arrived, he was a large child and. actually did not need goats’ milk. He was 12 and ½ pounds and he was all that my father hoped for, who he did not get in the firstborn. He was disappointed in the firstborn because it turned out to be a girl arid my mother promised him a boy a year later. She had a boy a year later but he was not a husky boy, but ten years later along comes a husky boy of which my father was very proud. OHS: Complete with available goats’ milk, unnecessary. See, I have varied memories. This first one was my establishment in this room in a bed. Obviously because it had pull up sides that had been my residence since babyhood, and. so this obviously continued until age seven, because you said this was 1920. Now I know that successively after this I remember sleeping in a folding bed in what we called the middle room, that is the one next to the dining room, I know that at one time or another Viola shared that room with Grandma (she says not), but anyway I know that I slept in the folding bed and she slept in another bed in that room for some period, I know that at one period the folding bed was in the dining room. VCM: That was where Frank and I slept all the time you were sleeping in a smaller bed, but when we were to be awakened, a wolf came in to wake us. This was before Frank and I should not sleep together any longer. They had a cot in the front room by the mantle piece. OHS: Can you remember when the changeover occurred? I recall the Peels living downstairs at 3257 and running a beauty shop. Williams was the name of’ the daughter, but the mother was Mrs. Peel, I am sure, and Mrs. Williams’ daughter was Irene. VCM: Irene’s uncle lived there too.
OBS: This I never knew. Do you recall when they left, because I recall my earliest memories was some Beatty family living upstairs at 3257 and theWilliazt8 living downstairs. I know that before too long Frank moved downstairs when the downstairs 3257 was vacated and the front became part of the store and the upstairs I know occupied by Aunt Julia who came I can’t say when. VCM: Mrs. Williams decided to remarry, therefore they moved out and she gave up the beauty parlor about 1916. [other accounts say 1920] OHS: That cannot be, because I well remember. VCM: No, around 1918 when I was about 16. That is approximate. 0113: When did the Red Bud Wahlmann episode happen? VCM: After Herbert had been going to high school a few years, one or two they moved over from Red Bud, I don’t know the year. OHS: Do you know when Aunt Julia went to Red Bud? Was she married to Henry Wahlmann there? VCM: Probably, because the only place I ever knew she lived was Red Bud. OHS: And we think that therefore Herbert and Ray were born in Red Bud. VCM: Oh, I’m quite sure of that. OHS: And came to St. Louis you say —— VCM: Their high school days. OHS: Both of them? VCM: Yes OHS: And where did, they live? VCM: 3257A. After Herbert had lived with us about a. year or so, then they moved to 3257A California.
OHS: Which at that time was not connected to the upstairs 3259 directly but only via the front or back doors. VCM: Right. And there was a back yard. The Williams beauty parlor was [unclear] turned over/into by Lillian Ray Beauty Shop, and there was this time when my mother was supposed to get her hair washed. Lillian Ray could not take her for her hairdo, therefore she washed her hair herself and used an electric hair dryer. She was so tired she lay down on the bed and fell asleep with the hair dryer blowing on and caught fire to the bed and my father had to rush into the room, smother her with blankets, and. get her to the hospital. OHS: This we know was considerably later, was it not? I had almost mixed together these two hospital affairs, the hospitalization associated with the burn and, what I realize of course was the kidney stone operation which was much later at the time when we were supposed to be married and we threatened to be married in her hospital room which brought her a quick recovery and a return home to avoid an unseemly affair, so that this establishes that in mid-1937. This is some more Violas. VES: This is the younger Viola, Viola #2 [also called ‘Tall Viola’] .Between the time that Otto got his PhD in June of 1937 and our marriage on August 1, 1937, we made a trip with Mama and Papa Schmitt and one Great Dane puppy to Chicago, During that time, while we were in Chicago, Mama Schmitt suffered an illness which we did not understand at the moment, except that she was in severe pain and she recovered enough for us to drive back to St. Louis. However, she apparently got much worse or got another attack and this turned out to be kidney stones and she went to the hospital and had an operation. OHS: This verifies, then, that we did go together to Chicago, approximately in July, either late June or in July, 1937. VCM: During the time Otto slept in the folding bed in the middle room, the second from the front room, and I slept in the double bed in the same room, I had a friend by the name of Emma Schuman who was working at that time for Dr. Walter Meier. He had a niece visiting him and Emma Schuman brought his niece, who loved to play the piano, her name was Barbara Hecker, she brought her to the house. We three, Emma Schuman, Barbara Hecker and I slept in this bed in the same room with Otto. Frank heard Barbara playing piano and was unable to resist listening to her and before very long fell in love with Barbara and this ended in a marriage in 1927 in Boston.
Now I will tell you a little bit about my marriage. I was married in 1925, December 2nd, to Arthur Christian Young, and we went to Buffalo, N.Y., lived with his parents for two months, then we got an apartment of our own on Ryan Street, 73 Ryan St. Arthur Frank, our oldest, was born November 25, 1926 the second ~ Alice Ruth was born March 23, 1928 the third was born August 23, 1929, the name was Kenneth Robert; and on September 14, 1930, we had twins, Edith Clair and Harvey Ray. Edith beat him by 15 minutes. September 19 was the father’s birthday. In May 4, 1935, Arthur, the father, died of strep or septic sore throat, as it was called at that time. He had been in bed a month before going to the hospital for 2 or 3 days. He had an operation at which time an error was committed. The bowel was cut and he died on May 4 and they said they could not locate what caused his sickness or his death until the autopsy. The one doctor would not give up because it was very difficult to locate what it was, but there were bands of pus running around the outside of the abdomen cavity and ever so often a bunch of grapes, which were really bags of pus, which caused him the severe back ache. The doctors at that time had the feeling at that time that anyone who had had the flu during the influenza epidemic, if they got this strep throat, they would not live. Whether this is true or not, I don t know. We had lived at four places in Buffalo, 73 Ryan Street, out on at the end of the line (Birch 147?), I can’t remember the name now, and then two places on Columbus, and he died at Columbus. We had to give up our home at that time. Arthur was at this time eight yearn old, Alice seven, and Kenneth five. The twins were not yet going to kindergarten. Edith was very self-sufficient and not yet in school, therefore our mother and father, Otto and Clara Schmitt, brought her to Saint Louis so that we would not have as many to take care of in Buffalo till we returned to St. Louis. So she spent one month with them, alone, and we lived with Kate Krueger for one week until the children finished school and we had disposed of all of our belongings. When we came home to St. Louis we brought seventy three packages, which was the same number as the 73 Ryan Street where all our five children were born. OHS: And when was the polio episode? VCM: Well, the polio episode was in September of 1930 when Arthur had polio and he got up the same day as I got up after the twins were born. Then when the twins were a month old we came to St. Louis. At that time we had the serious accident. We had a head-on accident and Arthur’s head went through the windshield
Side 3 January 1, 1977, 11:30 p.m. Viola is reminding us of very interesting family history. We have been examining the Buffalo era and the time of Arthur Senior’s death, which came in 1935. We are now talking about the accident in which Arthur Junior was injured coming to Saint Louis from Buffalo VCM: Our father was driving and it was downhill on a slippery brick road and. we skidded into the left lane. A car coming up from down the bill came up and hit us head-on, which is what caused the accident. After Arthur was taken out, he did not cry and our Mother, on whose lap Arthur had been sitting, was holding him and. she wished he would cry to make some noise. Our father tried to stop numerous cars before any would stop to take him to the hospital. At this time also, the twins, one Edith was in a collapsible crib in the bottom of the back seat and Harvey was in the swing above her. The collapsible crib in the tonneau had closed and. it was a very difficult thing for our father to open this crib to if the child was still alive. Then Tante Julia and Alice and I were sitting in the back seat. The seat came forward. Harvey, who was in the hammock above the tonneau of the rear, fell over into the vacant place at the back seat. When we took him out he kept on crying and I could not understand why he was crying until later on I realized he had hit this wooden part of the back seat. We went to Cleveland and stayed with Aunt Martha and when we called the hospital the following morning, we asked Arthur’s condition, which was listed as fair, and. our father could hardly take this. Then we came to St. Louis and we stayed there.
OHS: Where did this accident occur? VCM: Outside of Cleveland. We were trying to avoid Cleveland. However, we had to go back to Cleveland for a place to stay. OHS: Was this a visit from Buffalo to St. Louis? VCM: We were coming to St. Louis for, the twins were a month old and I was to have an operation. OHS: Oh, I see. The twins were a month old and you were coming to Saint Louis with all of the children? VCM: Except Kenneth who stayed with his Grandmother Young and he learned to walk at her house, OHS: You continued then to St. Louis in the same car, it was repairable to that extent. VCM: Yes. Now Arthur was just about over polio and. he was starting to limp. When we had this accident, he was in the hospital about four days. He came out of the hospital and he did not limp. Then we came to St. Louis and my father rubbed his legs with alcohol and worked hard with him and then he was given a little tricycle which he rode and enjoyed so much and then he started to limp again. This tricycle broke and Art limped no more after this. I was giving Harvey a bath on the table. He was in a little dish pan and somehow or other he almost slipped out of my hand and I caught him by one foot. OHS: Complications. Do you have any recollections of this series of helpers or what were ‘they called, hired girls, in the establishment? i remember particularly the transition around the time of our grandmother’s death because I remember that there was a girl named Heil, who was replaced by a Carrie Schnell because there was some bad pun joke made about having grandma recover rapidly from an ailment by virtue of Heil Schnell. VCM: Earlier than that we had a girl who was called Black Annie and we had a Rosie and we had a Mrs. Ottenad and we had a Dulcie and we had a Mrs. Conlon. I’d like to go back to one thing. To me this was an important area in my life, and I think to my brother Frank also. Our Grandmother had the middle room. There was a stove and. in back of this stove there was a couch. Grandma had a rocking chair which I still have in here in the living room. When we came home from high school, we would go into my grandmother’s room and tell her about our high school episodes and she would pray with us at this time arid this was a very important time to us and very enjoyable time, too. However, the other thing I did when I came home from high school was to go downstairs and make shades.
OHS: Of this same era, I wonder whether you can possibly recall the arrival and departure of a goldfish bowl, a large bowl in the dining room, 3259, which was during grandmothers 1st time of residence there when I was very small, because it was one of the first bio-experiments I did. I know that it was certainly pre-5 year old. There was a fairly large goldfish bowl near the windows. VCM: We always had amaryllis in the windows. OHS: Several feet long and in it were a number of goldfish and in addition there was one black goldfish, or black fish of the same general type, and there was a continual fuss about cleaning the goldfish bowl and I speculated on whether - - VCM: We had snails to clean it. OHS: Well I speculated on whether the black goldfish was coming off in the water and therefore I got another bowl and a strainer and undertook to isolate the black goldfish, to put it in the other bowl to see whether the big bowl stayed clean if you took the black goldfish out of it and in so doing the black goldfish ended up on the floor and did not survive the experiment arid I was ‘chastised for the well intentioned scientific experiment arid it turned out at least that the goldfish bowl continued to get dirty in the absence of the black goldfish. VCM: When I was young, we always ate in the kitchen for certain meals
and. Uncle John ate with us and we had a lovely mocking bird in the kitchen
with us. We thought a lot of this mockingbird. Out in the hay loft, Frank
and I would play out there and we had a good time. However, one time Frank
got his finger in the hay cutter, cut off his finger. He had a glove on
that finger and the glove was holding it in there. They took him to the
doctor and he still has his finger. OHS: Sewed it back on and it was held only by the glove. Can you estimate the approximate age or date of that episode? VCM: He was probably around five.
OHS: And please give us an estimate of your relative ages with the kitten laundering episode. VCM: Frank was, oh, four or five and I was no more than five, I think, when I had a toy wash machine and. Frank was going to wash these kittens in this wash machine and. somebody heard the kittens squealing and that was the end of that episode. But we had a good time in this hay loft because this was a sort of a refuge to go up into this hayloft and play there and look down the hole into the horses’ stalls. The horses were underneath and we - OHS: Where were the horses? Were they in the area that later became the garage? VCM: Right. They were on the Utah side by the alley. OHS: On the Utah side. As I earliest recall it, there was first a coal bin, then the garage area, then there was — - VCM: The horses may have been what you remember as the coal bin. OHS: Oh, they may have been that far over, because what was in the area that I know had under it a deep vault, the cesspool or whatever it was, was that this horses area? VCM: Oh no, no, this was the outdoor toilets. OHS: Oh, I see. VCM: This was the, belonged to the 3257 property. This was entirely separate. There was a structure there. OHS: There was no pigeon loft at this time? VCM: No. OHS: I see. And the hayloft was above the one portion which I remember as the coal bin. VCM: I don’t even remember that there was a coal bin. Frank and I used to have to get the coal and the wood up from the basement. OHS: Do you recall the outdoor toilets? VCM: Sure. I remember the outdoor toilets at Garfield. School, too. OHS: Was there no upstairs bathroom? VCM: Yes. That was there, but not on the 57 side. OHS: Oh. VCM: Not on 57 or 57A side. OHS: So that the upstairs toilet and bathtub were early installed.
VCM: That’s right. They were there as long as I know. OHS: Now there was a passageway going from the 57 side back yard through the sheds into the alley. VCM: Now to the left were the outdoor toilets; to the right were the coal bins for 57 and 57A. OHS: Fine I recall that. And. there was not at that time the shed that housed the shed with the large roof. This was built later. VCM: It was built fairly early. And we had the buckets of lye there which we were forbidden to get near, OHS: And when was the pigeon loft installed? I would like to pursue another topic - the horse topic. There are certain notable elements in this. I recall in particular the tale, that I heard but of course didn’t witness of Pop going to East Saint Louis and buying his first wild horse and riding it home over the Eads bridge. You don’t recall this. VCM: No. However, Pop lived with the gypsies and he learned horse trading from the gypsies. OHS: Ah? He lived with gypsies. When? VCM: Before he was married. He and Mr. Siler went out to Colorado together OHS: To Colorado. I never heard of it. I didn’t know about Colorado. VCM: You didn’t? Oh. Well, then. This is maybe a little long episode. At any rate, when I was young, my father decided to go off to Colorado with Mr. Siler. We were living on Nebraska Ave. at this time. We had horses in the back, at least a horse. It was my grandmother’s, it was a policy never to let anyone go away hungry. You always gave someone something to eat if they were hungry. Oh, it was quite a little while after my father was gone. My mother and grandmother were home alone, Grandma Senniger, and. they -heard the horses neighing and they were a little upset and a stranger came to the door and my mother answered the door and the stranger asked for a sandwich. My mother wanted to act like there was a man in the house, therefore she called back and she said “Otto, watch the baby.” And she want back and her mother fixed a sandwich, brought it to the stranger at the door, handed it to him, and said “Och, das is de Otto” and he had grown a mustache and perhaps a beard, at least my mother did not recognize him. OHS: This I had heard and you see this brings two things together. Will you try to resolve them? I knew about this trip with Siler; I did not know about a Colorado trip. Now the trip that I VCM: That was not to Colorado, although, no, it was to Poplar Bluff. Wait a minute; it was to that that high place down in Missouri. OBS: Do you recall the trip that Pop made with Siler into the Hillbilly Kentucky VCM: This is the trip I’m speaking of. OHS: This is the trip you are speaking of? VCM: As far as I know.
OHS: So that the Colorado trip was probably another trip. Do you recall
how he came into possession of the 50—50 caliber sporting elephant
rifle that they took on this trip? Because I have heard from him the story
of how they were refused food or resting place, not even allowed to buy
food, and. they persuaded a farmer to sell them some food by virtue of
carrying this 50—50 very dangerous rifle with them which changed
the farmer’s willingness to sell them some food and offer them water
from a well. I had heard this story from him and I know very thoroughly
about the rifle because it was a plaything of mine. During all of my earliest
days it lived in the attic and I of course learned its mechanisms, I oiled
it, I played with it, but there was no ammunition for it which I regretted,
of course, but I learned — — It was so heavy I could hardly
hold it up, but you do perhaps recall the object lesson for me that also
occupied thus back shed. This was a formidable weapon, a true elephant
rifle, a bullet and cartridge about 3 and ½ inches or so long with
a very heavy kick and a lot of penetration power. And Pop had apparently
never really used. it, but he thought he should teach me about how dangerous
this was and how children should be warned about the danger of weapons,
and so he set up in the garage an 8 x 8 block we used to stop the car
wheels and put a piece of boiler plate in front of it, behind it to make
absolutely sure and then took this rifle, loaded. it, and fired it at
this thick wooden block with the iron boiler plate behind it to show me
how dangerous it was, and then went to examine the block and found yes,
indeed, there was a hole through the block, there was a hole through the
boiler plate, there was a hole through the wall of the garage on the Utah
Street side, at about waist height or a little more, and the bullet had
chopped a little hole in Mr. Brinkman’s brick wall across the street.
Fortunately there seemed to be no pedestrians in the line of flight at
that particular time and so it became an object lesson for both of us. VCM: No. I know the names of the horses.
OHS: Well, the one was that apparently, I presume it was Mr. Senniger, his father-in—law, who wanted to borrow his horses to take him somewhere and I know that he told me about this, he told. several people about it, that one of these horses that he was training, he trained in reverse so that when you said “Whoa” the horse “gad dapped”, and when you pulled this way, the horse went that way, and so he laboriously trained this horse and then let it be borrowed, and the horse of course did all the wrong things and he did not have the problem of having his horse borrowed again. This was one I thought was fascinating. And the other one was that apparently somewhere early in their married life, Pop was proud of having a horse and wagon to go out, this was not a paint wagon but a surrey or something of this sort, and his very temperamental but well trained but skittish horse went off on a rampage and. on a Sunday afternoon with them all dressed up, went over these iron railings, I think it was along Jefferson Avenue, and threw the wagon and them all over the street, You don’t recall that. But now you do recall -— I know that there was a racing horse, I think its name was Tonkaway. Tell us about the horses. VCM, Well Tonkaway was the horse that Pop drove when he raced the horse up around Fairmont Park and Babe was a sort of a pet horse, OHS: Was Babe later or earlier? Babe survived into my memory. VCM: Babe was a horse that they could put me on when I was about two years old and the horse would bring me home. And we had a picture of that up in the attic for many years, but it is now gone. But an episode that Otto may not know, When we were young, Frank and I, our father had canaries. He sold canaries. He imported canaries, We had canaries in a fly up in the attic and we had little bird nests up in this cage and we thought this was grand, After the canary episode, Frank and I used this place as a play room and. this is where I had my doll house that he had made and other things. We used this for a play room. Up in the attic also our cousin, Arthur Schmitt, had his bed and he lived with us f or some time,
OHS: Where was this canary place, where was it that Arthur Schmitt had a bed? VCM: The canary place, the canary cage was by the, nearer to the 57 side where that small window is, that is where the canary cage was and it was a good size thing, I would say 6 x 10 sort of. OHS: I’m sure it was bigger than that. VCM: Probably so, I don’t remember exactly how big, and Arthur had his bed down a little closer to the attic steps. OHS: Now, I will add. to this the fact that what you now describe as
the canary room later became Frank’s chemistry laboratory, which
I well know because he impressed me into service and of course had to
show me his chemical experiments done in that laboratory and. he once
dangerously gassed me with chlorine gas which he generated abundantly
with an experiment, not realizing that chlorine, being much heavier than
air, sank to the bottom of the room and I was a very small kid at the
time and it had come up to my level and I was choking and coughing on
it and he did not want people to know that I was making a fuss about it
so he wouldn’t let me out and he was high enough to be above the
chlorine and you know chlorine was the World War I war gas, and so I was
being kind of dangerously chlorine poisoned and he did not realize this,
so I vividly remember this laboratory,
Side 4 The Utah Street side of the attic, near the back of the house where I
arranged an overhead water source in a crock and discharged my chemical
wastes into the drains, into the gutters where it probably corroded them
some. This was the scene of many experiments, at that time with John Hensgen,
who came to cooperate with me in my scientific experiments every Saturday
morning and highlights of this: 1) You will see the scar on my left little
finger - that scar there. This was an attempt to carry out experiments
suggested by Frank Involving chloroforming a cat. We had seen movies in
which someone held a handkerchief near someone’s nose and they then
passed out - well, we thought this was the way chloroform worked and I
liberated some chloroform from Frank. We obtained a cat, I was at that
time in the business of selling cats to Frank, and I later learned that
he was marketing them, at twice the price he gave me for them, to the
medical school, but we used one cat for our own experiments and we thought
that you simply said “Nice pussy”, held the cat gently and
held a chloroform towel to its nose, which we tried, whereupon the cat
objected violently and tore holes in my hand and we finally put rags around
the cat and finally chloroformed it to do our experiments but I had very
sore finger with a big cut in it that should have been sewed, which I
could never reveal because of course this was a not quite proper experiment,
but we did carry out the experiment, including obtaining a car’s
fur to do the classical cat’s fur electrostatic machine experiment
and of course we did internal physiological experiments, and so on. VCM: Since I had been a widow for thirty years and Rev. Albert J. F. Meier came to my rescue on his white charger and we met at the hospital in Danny’s room, therefore Danny has been considered by his mother as playing Cupid for us. We were married December 28, 1965. I had been married the first time at age 23, the second time at age 63. Albert has six children.
Dorothy, who was married to Rev. Herbert Kretzmann and has six children. The next one was Rev. Robert Edwin Meier who has married Mildred Kretzmann. The third one was Velma who is married to Richard Altobelli, a lawyer. The fourth one is Dr. Albert Henry Meier who is married to Arlene and they live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The fifth one is Mildred Elva who is married to my son, Rev. Kenneth Robert Young. They have five children. Now the last of Albert’s children is Harold Daniel Meier, who had married Edith. They live in New Jersey and he has started a business called Hospital Research, going into medicines and trying to determine what hospitals use for medicines, etc. OHS: Now do you remember the children’s names of each of these? You do? Well, do it. VCM: Dorothy’s children’s names are James, Karen, John, Jeremy, Joel, Kathryn. Robert’s children are Robert Steven, Paul Wayne, and Carol and Timothy. Velma’s children are Caroline, who is married and whose name is now Mrs. Stephen Hanes. The second one is Laura who has just returned from Ecuador, having served in the Peace Corps for two years and she is about to return to Ecuador for six months with the Peace Corps again. The third one is Charles, next one is Mark, and the youngest one is Ann. Albert’s children are Albert John, they call him A.J., the next one is Alden Don, the next one is Armin Ron, Mildred’s children of course I know, since they are also my grandchildren, Alice Rae who is attending Valparaiso University at this time, she is in her second year; Kenneth Robert II who is attending Urbana University, and is also in his second year; Stuart Arthur who is about to graduate from high school; Thomas Roger; and the youngest one is Lois. Then there are Harold’s children. The oldest one is Ricky, the middle one, a. girl, is Susan, and the baby is Steven.
Now I don’t think I have told you the names of my own grandchildren. OHS: We now proceed to the other Viola who can give us a corresponding family history. Viola #1 has done this with respect to the Meier family, but has still not done it with respect to the Young family. So now, I think we should have a corresponding thing of the Muenches and their relatives of which there are several. It is all yours. VES: When I was in Washington University as a sophomore, I took a math course with Jessica Young, who later became Jessica Young Stephens, and in this class there was one Otto Herbert Schmitt. Now I have always claimed that the reason he noticed me was that in order to see the blackboard, he had to look around or over me, because I made it a point to sit in the front row and he sat behind me. We both belonged to the Math… OHS: The Moo-moos. VES: The math honorary society and occasionally he took me home from this. This organization, at which we occasionally met, was Pi Mu Epsilon. We continued to see each other in the various math classes that we took, since there was only one math class available at that level and well, just got to know each other reasonably well. OHS: On the record quite, but you do remember the party at which Jessica was asked who arranged this miserable meeting, and she said “I did”.
VES: Who arranged what meeting? OHS: We had one of these social evenings at Pi Mu Epsilon and someone asked who arranged it, and she said. “I did”. VES: I got my bachelor’ s degree from Washington University in
1934, was unable to find a. teaching job, or any other job for that matter
at that point, managed to get a scholarship which paid my tuition in order
to get a Master’s, and also had a part time job with a psychiatrist,
a practicing psychiatrist. I got my Master’s in June of 1935 and
by that time I had a teaching job in Mendon, Illinois. Being the only
available teacher of mathematics and Latin in both Chicago and St. Louis,
and Mendon, Illinois needing a teacher of math and Latin, I got the job.
The job paid one thousand dollars per year. To my considerable surprise,
I found that I was occasionally getting letters from one Otto Schmitt
while I was teaching in Mendon, and eventually it became pretty obvious
that we were going to be married, which we did on August 1,1937.
OHS: I was forced to recall, from Viola’s telling of old tales, one thing which is a little fuzzy in my memory but runs approximately this way. It has to do with the first time I took her out to dinner in a restaurant, in St. Louis, during regular research and activities, and I can’t put an exact date on it. However, due arrangements had been made that I should pick her up at her home at about 5 or 5:30, take her downtown where I had made plans for us to have dinner in a Chinese restaurant in the roughly 12th St. and Locust area. I don’t recall the name of the restaurant, but I do recall that it became a. wild affair. Early in the afternoon, Mr. Breiman poured some acid into the sink to dispose of it. When it hit water in the sink there was a steam explosion sending acid and water up in his face and in his eyes, whereupon I know that I was involved in it, I don’t know where Frank was, but we poured neutralizing agents (bicarbonate) in his eyes, in his face, and of course he was very badly pained. by this and I took him in my car and roared down to Barnes Hospital, down Lindell Blvd. along side of Forest Park, and. even blowing my horn I could not attract any police attention to help me get him down there fast. We got him emergency attended to in due course but by now I was late for my appointment, headed back for the laboratory as soon as I decently could with him attended to, came back to the laboratory prepared to take off almost immediately for 915 Clarendon Ave. I got back into the laboratory, smelled smoke, and. found that the blower system that we had connected for ventilating the one room, the darkroom area, with a power blower and a canvas. Side 5 OHS: To finish that small story about the appointment. I necessarily had a scrubbing up job to do, with no spare clean clothes to put on, but after telephoning that I would be late, I think it was something like 6:30 that I got to Clarendon Avenue where she was still waiting to go to dinner downtown and we indeed did go and I think it was probably the first time she was ever exposed to a full Chinese dinner. She has her mouth open. We now introduce Viola as the narrator with respect to the Muench establishment. I think you should review your parents, their maiden names, their brothers, sisters, their origins and their offspring.
VES: My father, Frederick Julius Muench, was born December 4, 1877 on
a farm near Dutzow Missouri. My mother, Clara Emilie Ahmann, was born
February 24, 1889 near Marthasville, Missouri. They were married November
9, 1911 in St. Louis, Mo., Having, in effect, eloped. Actually they did
not particularly like the minister in Marthasville, so they came to St.
Louis and. were married by a friend of theirs there. Fred Muench was at
that time half owner of a general store in Marthasville, and he and
Mother lived upstairs somewhere in downtown Marthasville, I do not know
nor have I ever known what building. One reason for the choice of the
date of their marriage was that had they waited just a little longer,
my father, who was born on December 4th, would have been twelve years
older than Mother, instead of only eleven. After a year or two, I don’t
know the dates, Mother and Dad moved to St. Louis, Dad went to work for
Simmons Hardware Company, and they lived on Tamm Avenue where I was born
on March 1, 1914. A few months later they moved to a house that Dad had
bought in St. Louis at 915 Clarendon Avenue when he came to St. Louis
for the World’s Fair in 1904. The house had been rented to a series
of people and had stood vacant for a. while, so Mother and Dad, taking
me with them of course, moved in with ideas of cleaning the place up and
then renting it again. They felt that a six room house was probably more
than they needed. However, that was the only home I knew until the time
I was married. Mother and Dad lived there until they moved to 5328 Neosho
Street. I think they lived on Clarendon Ave. for 35 years, and then they
lived on Neosho Street for roughly 25 years. They celebrated their 60th
wedding anniversary with a reception in the basement of Southampton Presbyterian
Church which they had joined a few years after they moved to Neosho Street.
Mother and Dad were married a total of 62 years. Dad died. Christmas Eve
in 1972 and a year and a half later Mother entered the St. Louis Altenheim
and is living there at the present time, |
